About the league points system

Discussion and information related to the open Intermediate league
Post Reply
Albus
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:42 pm

About the league points system

Post by Albus »

Today, I am the most active player in the league. I am currently in second place and Rafka is in first place. After I played against ultiartsy I noticed something. The rank had me with 38.30 points and Rafka with 42.18. After report that game, I was with 38.57 (+0.27 points) and rafka with 42.44 (+0.26 points). I asked why this happens and people answered that:

[2020-08-02] Silaneo:
yes, Rafka gets some of Your points based on his win-loose ratio with You
[2020-08-02] Rafka:
yes, I get points for everyone with who I won, when that person (everyone) won somebody: D


This season I only played against Rafka a single BO3 and Rafka won (score was 2-1). Does this mean that if he doesn't play with me this season anymore, I will never be able to overtake him in the score? If that's true, don't you guys think that this system doesn't encourage continuous confrontation between same players?

I really enjoy playing intermediate, even if it's just for fun. But if I am playing a league, it is evident that I want to be in the best position possible, as it is a competition, otherwise I would be playing just for fun. Based on this assumption, see the following example:

I (Albus) have played many games against Crvic so far. These are our statistics: Total round played (overall / season): (28-5) / (18-3). For the purpose of a good position in the ranking, were most of these games useless to me? In this season, It would be enough for me to keep, for example, just a 2x0 against Crvic since all the games he won later against other people would also give me points? If that's the logic... sorry, Crvic. I appreciate all these games with me (it was fun), but from now on, if you want to play with me, let's just play for fun. There is no benefit to me playing against you in the league anymore.

Silaneo
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2008 3:53 pm

Re: About the league points system

Post by Silaneo »

I agree that this system encourages inactivity.Its impossible to get a rematch against Rafka when You lost a first match and I see another player that sais he will do similiar thing.The tus system seems better ,you still get some point against less ranked players and more for top ranked players with a 50 games with a player limit per each season.It might be a good idea to implement some features of this system to reward active players.Maybe besides points based on win-loss ratio we should add a bonus based on the ranking of defeated player

Albus
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:42 pm

Re: About the league points system

Post by Albus »

Guys... see this picture:
https://imgur.com/a/tIAZ7N8
In the image above I show how someone (in the case of the example, Rafka), even without playing, continues to earn many points based on the victory of other people (in this case, me), even though I defeated someone who defeated Rafka (and that's only because he won a single bo3 from me this season by the score of 2-1). I follow the same understanding as Silaneo, I think that this system indirectly benefits inactivity and discourages confrontations between same players.

Rafka
NNN member
Posts: 433
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:31 pm
Contact:

Re: About the league points system

Post by Rafka »

It's just because I played with almost every player and I won :P
U can get closer to me by playing with other players that U didnt play with yet and trying to have a positive score games with everyone; also try to not lose any round with opponents ;)

Albus
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:42 pm

Re: About the league points system

Post by Albus »

Yes. I'm starting to understand better now how it works. But in my opinion, someone should only earn points in the league when playing against someone. Earning points without playing ends up "rewarding" inactivity. But, as I said, this is just my opinion and I created this topic as well to see what other players think about it.

Rafka
NNN member
Posts: 433
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:31 pm
Contact:

Re: About the league points system

Post by Rafka »

Dude what inactivity are U talking about? I play league as U can see, not so much as U but still.

Albus
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:42 pm

Re: About the league points system

Post by Albus »

I'm not talking about you. You are very active in the league.

Let me give you an example and you say to me if i'm correct.

Let's assume that the league has 10 players only.
Now suppose I play only one BO3 against all these players and win all these BO3, ok?
After these BO3 I will be inactive for a time. Even without playing I will earn points based on the victory of the 9 players against whom I have won. Doesn't it work like that? You and Silaneo said this:

[2020-08-02] Silaneo:
yes, Rafka gets some of Your points based on his win-loose ratio with You
[2020-08-02] Rafka:
yes, I get points for everyone with who I won, when that person (everyone) won somebody: D
From what you two said I understood that.


For example, let's look at Kayz's statistics for this season.
He has only 6 games (with 6 victories) and has 40.53 points (fourth place in the ranking). On the other hand I have 57 games (with 44 victories) and 54.83 points. As we can see, he is not so far from me in the score, even with so few matches compared to my number of games.
Why does he have so many points with so few matches? This happens because, for example, he defeated me (Albus) and Silaneo (very active players), and part of the points of our victories go to him, right? From what you and Silaneo said in the answer above, this is what I understood about the league's points system.

So... if I understand correctly how the points system works, I came here just to propose that people earn points only based on their victories and not based on the victory of people they defeated. This ends up being a kind of "prize" for players who are low on activity.
I saw that Silaneo agreed with me above when he said that: "I agree that this system encourages inactivity". Maybe he can use better words than mine to explain it since my English is very rusty.

Rafka
NNN member
Posts: 433
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:31 pm
Contact:

Re: About the league points system

Post by Rafka »

If U will be inactive after these 9 wns, it's a matter of time that someone will take your 1st place.
Ranking is deep and made by Dario if I'm correct. I doubt that someone will or could change it.
I guess Kayz knows more about the rank system, if U wanna know more.

Albus
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:42 pm

Re: About the league points system

Post by Albus »

I will make a comparison of two scenarios using three players who are playing the current season (with their current positions in the rank).
The first scenario is the current system. The second scenario is the one described/proposed above.
In these two scenarios, let's assume that Crvic's goal is just one: to surpass Kayz in rank :twisted:

First scenario (current system):

Albus - Rank (2) - Points (54.83) - Games (44-13)
Kayz - Rank (4) - Points (40.53) - Games (6-0)
Crvic - Rank (9) - Points (24.04) - Games (12-31)

Me (Albus), I was defeated by both Kayz and Crvic during the current season.
Now let's imagine that Kayz doesn't play anymore until the end of the Season (58 days left).
Let's imagine that, during this remaining period, Crvic beat me (Albus) 10 games, something very difficult for him, since our win ratio is very favorable to me. As he is beating someone well placed in the ranking and against whom he usually loses, he will earn more points, right!? Ok. However, an amount of the points he earns will also go to kayz as well (since Kayz won against Crvic and also won against me). In other words... while Crvic takes a step closer to Kayz in rank, Kayz, even without playing, takes another step away from Crvic. So... the current system does not offer Crvic such a favorable scenario to overtake a well placed player, even if that player is inactive, in our example, that player is Kayz.

Second scenario

Albus - Rank (2) - Points (54.83) - Games (44-13)
Kayz - Rank (4) - Points (40.53) - Games (6-0)
Crvic - Rank (9) - Points (24.04) - Games (12-31)

In this scenario we will apply to the same previous example the following rule: the amount of points you earn will depend on your opponent's placement (this already occurs in the current points system, right?) and you only get points if you actually play, you don't get points based on the victories of players you won against (this would be the factor that differs from the current points system).

Crvic wins 10 games against me. As I am well placed, he will earn more points than usual. In this system, you only get points if you play, so Kayz will not win based on Crvic's victories over me. Therefore, in this scenario, Crvic has a more favorable reality to overcome Kayz.

Conclusion

In both scenarios Crvic can overtake Kayz in the rank... but I think the second scenario is more fair for our friend Crvic. The only difference between the two scenarios is that Kayz, even though he remains inactive for the rest of the season, will not earn points based on Crvic's victories over me. Crvic, in the second scenario and in my opinion, will have a fairer way to overtake Kayz in the rank.

PS: About what you said: "Ranking is deep and made by Dario if I'm correct. I doubt that someone will or could change it."
So I think that this topic and this conversation will only have a utopian purpose :|

Kilobyte
NNN member
Posts: 1338
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:22 pm
Contact:

Re: About the league points system

Post by Kilobyte »

The old NNN scoring system (before 2009) was based on activity. I mean, there were some players who werent even better than me, but hit the top just because they played a lot. This system doenst take in account the activity, just scores. It doesnt mean it encourages inactivity. It just not made based on it.
"Unique: if we dont know him he's a noob. Well, if I dont know some1 I know he's noob"

Albus
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:42 pm

Re: About the league points system

Post by Albus »

Kilobyte wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:07 pm
The old NNN scoring system (before 2009) was based on activity. I mean, there were some players who werent even better than me, but hit the top just because they played a lot. This system doenst take in account the activity, just scores. It doesnt mean it encourages inactivity. It just not made based on it.
Yes. I understand what you mean Kilobyte. In fact it is difficult to find a solution that would be 100% ideal, or in other words, perfect. Because if you prioritize the activity, you end up having situations like the one you described (worse players, but more active, in better positions - that's unfair). Although I "criticized" the current league system, I wouldn’t know how to propose a better solution than that and maybe it really doesn’t exist.

The only problem with this system is that when a player only plays 1 or 2 bo3 against you, he wins them, and then he no longer plays against you. This makes it very difficult for you to overcome their position in their rank if they continue to play against other people and not with you.

For example ... Rafka told me that he only plays one or two BO3 with each player per season. He played a BO3 against me and won 2x1. He is an active player in the league, so he is always earning points. I am also active and I am always earning points. However, the difference is that my points also go to him, making it difficult to reach him.

PS1: i'm not against your choice Rafka, of playing only 1 or 2 BO3 with each player in the season. It's your right and there is nothing wrong with that. I'm just mentioning the difficult that I have with the current system.
PS2: sorry my english ... very rusty. But I hope it was clear.

Albus
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:42 pm

Re: About the league points system

Post by Albus »

Just for example, if I play 50 games against Rafka and my win rate against him is still extremely unfavorable to me, I would have nothing to complain about. He deserves a better position than mine. But at least I had more chances (even if remote, as he is better than me) to get a better win rate against him and make my situation easier in the rank to surpass him.

But by the current points system, and taking into account the following:
1) he played 1 BO3 against me and won 2x1
2) this 2x1 victory makes every victory I have in the league also give him points
3) he also earns points based on his own wins
All these facts together make it very difficult for me to reach him in the rank and only because of a 2x1 win. Just to give you an idea ... this is our current rank data:

Rafka - Rank (1) - Points 61.42 - Rounds (55-8) - Games (26-2) - Activity 10 Good
Albus - Rank (2) - Points 58.67 - Rounds (96-40) - Games (45-13) - Activity 39 hyperactive !!

In other words, to get close to his score I had to play MUCH more than him.
And if I can't play that much for a period it will be almost impossible for me to get him in the rank if he remains active in the league. This generated a feeling that all my games were a vain effort. But it's really my fault. This rule is explicit on the website - http://www.normalnonoobs.com/rules/en.

Maybe it's a stupid idea. But wouldn't it be possible to stipulate that each player would be required to play an "X" number of games against another? If he did not play that amount of "X" matches, he would lose the points that the player he defeated gave him based on his own victories at the end of the season. I think that would remove the feeling of being so hampered by a few games. If I have to lose 0-30 against someone, no problem ... at least I had the chance to change my winrate against that person.

Kilobyte
NNN member
Posts: 1338
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:22 pm
Contact:

Re: About the league points system

Post by Kilobyte »

I understand your point. Two things:

- (maybe OFF, it points out the calculating system) if everybody were driven by: "I want to be the top1 otherwise I all games is futile" then it would end up everybody burns out. Focus on having fun but not on the ranking table. Let it not determine your attitude.
- this stipulate sounds good first, but only Dario may give me the permission to touch the ranking system. Which brings a load of risks.
"Unique: if we dont know him he's a noob. Well, if I dont know some1 I know he's noob"

Albus
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:42 pm

Re: About the league points system

Post by Albus »

Kilobyte wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:40 pm
I understand your point. Two things:
- (maybe OFF, it points out the calculating system) if everybody were driven by: "I want to be the top1 otherwise I all games is futile" then it would end up everybody burns out. Focus on having fun but not on the ranking table. Let it not determine your attitude.
I couldn't agree more with your tought. But while playing the league, I can't turn off 100% of my desire to compete and to have the best performance in the ranking. So I would say it's 80% fun and 20% competitiveness. That 20% is the source of my dissatisfaction with the current system. Unfortunately I can't get rid of that 20%. I believe that if there was a 0% desire for competition I would be a worse player than I already am and maybe I wasn't playing worms until today (I like some competitiveness). But I agree with you that we should be motivated by fun and make friends in the game. If competitiveness goes too high, there will be room for fights between players (for example, drop situations can cause discussions if people are very competitive) etc. Too much competitiveness and not enough sense of just having fun is very bad!
Kilobyte wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:40 pm
- this stipulate sounds good first, but only Dario may give me the permission to touch the ranking system. Which brings a load of risks.
I understand. Well... with or without change, I am happy to bring an idea that may sound interesting at first and I thank you for your attention and open mind.

Post Reply