League scheme with(out) JP delay

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Ivo
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League scheme with(out) JP delay

Post by Ivo »

Joschi putted available, at CWT forum, the scheme with no delay and I'm guessing that in the set of the people who already have the new patch, some will use the "official" scheme with the delay, some the scheme with no delay for, ONL games too. So, probably some confusion will occur and we should put it clear.

My opinion is that the delay should stay now. I was glad when I knew that was never intended to put that delay and it's only born because of a bug. So, since the bug is fixed, I suggest to keep the original idea of the scheme. I agree with all that Dario said (Joschi you can move some public posts to this thread). With no delay, it gives even more power to the person who takes the first turn of the game. Also, our rules said that, if both players agree, they can play a league game with the classic Intermediate scheme. So, both schemes should be as similar as it possible. I understand the absence of crates and the cluster power reduction to 2. But I don't find a logical explanation to be different with the JP.
Last edited by Ivo on Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Joschi

Re: League scheme with(out) JP delay

Post by Joschi »

Pro: I like the mine knockings in the very first turns. The game also lives of it's quick start, you must put a lot of thinkings in the 1st turn. There a wider possibilitys of weapons help you. Just imagine you take 2 WS, and only have left 15 sec for your attack. There a jetpack give you a lot more options then a rope.

Con: - The original idea. - More rope skills are requiered. - Mad Cow users can't attack with jetpack + team weapon in 2nd turn.

Dario saied it isn't a scheme changing at all. But at end, it's IMO a very big change. It's not about the theoretical scheme, it's moreover about the played scheme in game. So, IMO, there is a scheme changing. And at least we should discuss it. I really don't know why you prefer to talk it clan intern. I know boys like SirG, Mablak or Khams have an valid opinion too. Not a clan decision must be taken, a community decision must be taken! I think we should trust a bit more into community. Because NNN clan means 4-5 opinions.

Btw. I overtoke your con argument of "The original idea", but IMO it's not a validate point, because we have changed the scheme already. Now we just should discuss benefits and negative aspects. But it's not a benefit to keep at original scheme as close as possible, because it's a fact, that the old scheme has his disadvantages too.
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Domi
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Re: League scheme with(out) JP delay

Post by Domi »

I agree with both sides up to a point.
1 - I agree with joschi when he says this should be public... there are very respectful and experienced players out of the clan (I don't think a poll would be a good idea though);
2 - I think that we should keep always in mind the original scheme, but try to develop it (without radical changes);
3 - I don't have a strict opinion about the jetpack delay... I'm used to play without delay but I can adapt to the way it was before.
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GopnicK
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Re: League scheme with(out) JP delay

Post by GopnicK »

U BETTER PUT THE COWS DELAY ON 4 TURNS!

Just imagine, 2 fakin huge, horrible, blue animals at second turn. (have u ever seen blue cows?)
My worms dont placed proper, but i dont want to use all the selects coz u'll pile em, right?! And maybe i'll hide another worm from below edge usin jet pack when i have no time to use rope and attack instead of gettin pwnd on second turn?!
Hokku:
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Dario
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Re: League scheme with(out) JP delay

Post by Dario »

-The argument of keeping the scheme as similar as possible unless there is a deep discussion about it comes from the experience of having lived through periods in the Intermediate history where many "changes to improve the scheme" were proposed. To mention some of the ones that come to my mind:
Manual placemen (beginnings of NNN, we almost did it in fact), modified handgun and suicide bomber (to make them useful), more or less ropes, more or less rope power, different SD time, SD clock, different type of SD...
We even made some weird attepts at making "lightside" and "darkside" schemes. Koras: do you remember? xD newb us.

Point is: changes have to be carefully thought; otherwise we will slowly end with a scheme way too different to the standard one without many real improvements, just modifications. And "being loyal to the roots, when possible" is not really an argument too much stronger or weaker than "it's more fun to knock mines on the first turn".

Still haven't seen a "pro- 0 delay" that doesn't have an intrinsic "con- 0 delay", but have seen some "con- 0 delay" that don't have an intrinsic "pro- 0 delay".
-Mine knocking skills <-> roping skills and speed in the first turn
-Easier to hide your weak worms if your placement sucks <-> easier to kill your enemy worms when his placement sucks.
-Wider variety of weapons <-> well we are not reducing homming, skunk or airstrikes delay to 0, right?.
-(something still haven't come up) <-> cows were already good enough with the 2 turns delay on jetpack.
-(something still haven't come up) <-> trying to stick to the old ways unless there is a good reason not to.

And yes, the opinion of experienced league players count; but it's in us (active NNN's) to take the final decision.
Joschi

Re: League scheme with(out) JP delay

Post by Joschi »

Dario wrote: -Mine knocking skills <-> roping skills and speed in the first turn
-Easier to hide your weak worms if your placement sucks <-> easier to kill your enemy worms when his placement sucks.
-Wider variety of weapons <-> well we are not reducing homming, skunk or airstrikes delay to 0, right?.
-(something still haven't come up) <-> cows were already good enough with the 2 turns delay on jetpack.
-(something still haven't come up) <-> trying to stick to the old ways unless there is a good reason not to.
Read for me pretty 50/50 8)

Our different opinions occure on the miracle, that I think it would be a change, not adapting the scheme to the circumstance of released patch. And for you the new patch just abolished a bug :)
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Kayz
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Re: League scheme with(out) JP delay

Post by Kayz »

I can live with it, let's have the delay like in good olde times.
[FaD] im pro jumper
[lNNNxDario] i see
Koras
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Re: League scheme with(out) JP delay

Post by Koras »

yeah I still got this 2 funny schemmes :)
if I am not wrong SirGorash made them.

it wasnt a big change few years ago so it wont be big change now too....
I am not very happy about it(fuck ...now I have to train my rope skills) but i know it have to be done:)
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Achilles
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Re: League scheme with(out) JP delay

Post by Achilles »

Sheep launcher should have 2 shots, granny should be a bit more powerfull or 2 shots, mole (cmon!) should be more powerfull at least!
We might alter the balance of the game but for good!!! that would be great, different choices apart from cows and holy! no one thinks of it as me? That should be discussed and will be the best improvement of the scheme.
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Domi
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Re: League scheme with(out) JP delay

Post by Domi »

Achilles wrote:Sheep launcher should have 2 shots, granny should be a bit more powerfull or 2 shots, mole (cmon!) should be more powerfull at least!
We might alter the balance of the game but for good!!! that would be great, different choices apart from cows and holy! no one thinks of it as me? That should be discussed and will be the best improvement of the scheme.
I couldn't agree more.
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Dario
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Re: League scheme with(out) JP delay

Post by Dario »

Achilles wrote:Sheep launcher should have 2 shots, granny should be a bit more powerfull or 2 shots, mole (cmon!) should be more powerfull at least!
We might alter the balance of the game but for good!!! that would be great, different choices apart from cows and holy! no one thinks of it as me? That should be discussed and will be the best improvement of the scheme.
The game still does not allow us to alter special (team) weapons settings.
Dario
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Re: League scheme with(out) JP delay

Post by Dario »

Look at first turns ^^, mine knocking in leet ways can still happen without jetpack in the first turns. In fact jetpack with 2 turns delay might make us learn more about new ways of knocking mines. Just trading jetpack mine knocks for other ways that require as much skills and creativity.

Edit: another replay :). Knocking mines without jet is cool.
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Achilles
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Re: League scheme with(out) JP delay

Post by Achilles »

Dario wrote:
Achilles wrote:Sheep launcher should have 2 shots, granny should be a bit more powerfull or 2 shots, mole (cmon!) should be more powerfull at least!
We might alter the balance of the game but for good!!! that would be great, different choices apart from cows and holy! no one thinks of it as me? That should be discussed and will be the best improvement of the scheme.
The game still does not allow us to alter special (team) weapons settings.
Haha, yes u are right i just forgot :P
Well then this is a good suggestion for next updates and patches.
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Ivo
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Re: League scheme with(out) JP delay

Post by Ivo »

One thing has to be clarified here.
Until the opposite will say (which would mean that the "no delay" had won this discussion), the Official scheme of ONL is the same scheme, the old one, which is the scheme where, with the new patch 3.6.30, there is the delay. The JP delay always was in the scheme but, due to a bug in the previous patch, it wasn't a allowed.
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DarKx'X'xLorD
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Re: League scheme with(out) JP delay

Post by DarKx'X'xLorD »

The JP delay always was in the scheme but
oh, Ivo... Even I do not remember already that time...

My opinion - I for saving old (old, now :P xD) - the delay is absolutely not necessary. Many have got used, and it changes Gameplay very seriously!

Also the delay jetpack will not allow ???????? ????? in a bad position and will strongly strike on to mad cows.
I against!!! :(
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