What to do on equal points in CWT group stage?

CWT is a yearly hosted Intermediate tournament. It's considered the most prestigious of its kind and has money prizes involved.

What to do on equal points in CWT Group Stage?

Poll ended at Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:42 am

Points -> Head to head game
3
38%
Points -> Round Ratio -> Head to head game
5
63%
 
Total votes: 8

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Kayz
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What to do on equal points in CWT group stage?

Post by Kayz » Thu Jan 29, 2015 11:59 pm

I am terribly sorry.

I saw the poll was in the off topic as well as in the CWT forums, so I thought it was duplicated. So, when I deleted the Off-topic one, the one in CWT forum disappeared as well..
I just didn't know it was a global announcement. What a rookie fail :).

We had 4 votes for "Points -> Head to head game" by khamski, Koras, HwoarangCS and Akt
We had 5 votes for "Points -> Round ratio -> Head to head game" by Zemke, kukumber, tadeusz, boolc and me, I think.

Please vote publicly, so we can combine the old and new votes in the end.

Sorry folks :(
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Re: What to do on equal points in CWT group stage?

Post by khamski » Fri Jan 30, 2015 9:40 am

Read UEFA Champions League regulations (page 11)
http://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Dow ... WNLOAD.pdf

They decide group equal points situation comparing stats of HEAD-2-HEAD game between teams with equal points.

== quote starts
If two or more teams are equal on points on completion of the group matches,
the following criteria are applied to determine the rankings (in descending
order):
a) higher number of points obtained in the group matches played among the
teams in question
;
b) superior goal difference from the group matches played among the teams
in question
;
c) higher number of goals scored in the group matches played among the
teams in question
;
d) higher number of goals scored away from home in the group matches
played among the teams in question;
...
== quote ends

ONLY If all that stats are the same they compare group stats.

But we can't have a TIE in group games so for us deciding system is very easy:

POINTS -> RESULT of HEAD-2-HEAD GAME
Yeah, really. When you change your cows to pigeons you loose the big fucking sledgehammer called COWS. Without it you will hardly make it to SD.

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Re: What to do on equal points in CWT group stage?

Post by kukumber » Fri Jan 30, 2015 6:44 pm

Too bad we don't play football here. Why football? Why not a curling rules or pool, or table tennis and whatever else. System should be based on criterea essential for WA rather than on "I like football, let's make it like in football".

Group stage is there to define players with better overall performance. For situation with two tied players you want to put A player in front of B player just because he won their game regardless of the fact A lost to C and B won him. Considering head-to-head record over the round ratio could basically denies a whole won game, which is a nonsense for the group stage.

Moreover I would like to stress that you don't win rounds "just". Sometimes it happens to be a 45 minutes game full of tactical choices and skillfull moves.

Also single round is what makes a difference in 3-2 game. Hence you would like to consider this win (which is a single round difference again) over the round ratio which considers all rounds evenly.

Head-to-head record is basically not logical for particular system. You never gave any arguments of the opposite, nor the current system proven to be inefficient.

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Re: What to do on equal points in CWT group stage?

Post by Kayz » Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:12 pm

Very good post. Remember we had the same discussion in Jellenio vs. kukumber game? Most commented CWT game ever. Ever.
Jellenio knew he couldn't allow kukumber to win 2 rounds, but he failed to avoid it. He didn't complain. It was a fair situation. It would suck even more to let Jellenio through, though kukumber won a game 3-0, which is a very hard thing to do, especially vs. a player like Thouson.

And now comes the most funny part. khamski agreed that in a 3-way-tie kukumber would go through, which would be the case if for example Thouson would win 2 rounds vs. Fantomas. Then all three players would have 4 points and kukumber would go through.
So the CL system would have two different results (either Jellenio or kukumber going through), if Thouson played differently vs. Fantomas.. A game where neither kukumber nor Jellenio are part of! A game where kukumber and Jellenio don't have any influence on!
And this you call fair??? Are you serious? Please don't vote for this shit.

You could argue, that if Thouson wins 2 rounds vs. Fantomas, it makes him a better player, so kukumber's win vs. him is worth more. But that's even more bullshit, because Fanto could just have a bad day. Why should either Jellenio or kukumber suffer, because of a result they are not part of?
If you can give me a valid argument, which is reasonable, instead of just repeating those stupid CL rules, I might rethink my opinion on this matter.
Only because some football league does it this way, it doesn't make it the non-plus-ultra system.
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Re: What to do on equal points in CWT group stage?

Post by khamski » Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:22 pm

Too bad we don't play football here. Why football? Why not a curling rules or pool, or table tennis and whatever else. System should be based on criterea essential for WA rather than on "I like football, let's make it like in football".
Just a heads-up. No need to show your hate to football here. It's not about some exact sport.
It's about the scale of an event.
UEFA CL is a huge continental tournament with hundreds of millions viewers all over the world.
Big money involved. Huge responsibility. Best managers in the world involved in organisation.
So example is valid and informative for those who already didn't know that facts.
Group stage is there to define players with better overall performance. For situation with two tied players you want to put A player in front of B player just because he won their game regardless of the fact A lost to C and B won him.
I don't consider secondary stats as a serious indicator that can break the tie between two players with equal points.
POINTS is what important not round ratios.
Secondary stats are subjective.
You can gain more rounds from a weak player and less from a strong one.
And then use it as a tie-breaker to take stronger player place in PO ignoring your head-2-head result vs him.
In which you lost.
It is lame.
Considering head-to-head record over the round ratio could basically denies a whole won game, which is a nonsense for the group stage.
No. Nobody and nothing can deny a won game.
Because won game gives you POINTS.
GROUP PERFOMANCE of players is fully reflected IN THEIR POINTS.
The rest is just a tie-breaker material.

TIE-BREAKER can be anything.
Secondary stats, paper-scissors, additional game, result of their head-2-head game.

I prefer result of player HEAD-2-HEAD game.
You prefer something else. Fine with me. Vote.

Also single round is what makes a difference in 3-2 game. Hence you would like to consider this win (which is a single round difference again) over the round ratio which considers all rounds evenly.
Yes. 1 round makes the difference.
Thats why i prefer to look at rounds ratio among the players in question.
Not at rounds gained vs other players.

Get it?

We break the tie BETWEEN THE TWO so we must look at STATS BETWEEN THEM!
Head-to-head record is basically not logical for particular system. You never gave any arguments of the opposite, nor the current system proven to be inefficient.
Head-2-head record as a tie-breaker is perfectly logical.
And current point system is awesome.
Tie-breaker is just a last little part of a puzzle that needs to find its place.
Yeah, really. When you change your cows to pigeons you loose the big fucking sledgehammer called COWS. Without it you will hardly make it to SD.

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Re: What to do on equal points in CWT group stage?

Post by khamski » Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:32 pm

My reply to Kayz follows. Need to get back on a memory lane and bring that comments up. Funny thread that was. ))

And btw.. Stop cheating!!!

We have Akt, khamski, Hwoarang and CS voted! Thats four!
But only 3 votes number is shown!
Cheaters!
Spoiler:
That was me joking in temporary post. :shock:
Yeah, really. When you change your cows to pigeons you loose the big fucking sledgehammer called COWS. Without it you will hardly make it to SD.

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Re: What to do on equal points in CWT group stage?

Post by khamski » Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:20 am

Kayz wrote:... And now comes the most funny part. khamski agreed that in a 3-way-tie kukumber would go through, which would be the case if for example Thouson would win 2 rounds vs. Fantomas. Then all three players would have 4 points and kukumber would go through.
So the CL system would have two different results (either Jellenio or kukumber going through), if Thouson played differently vs. Fantomas.. A game where neither kukumber nor Jellenio are part of! A game where kukumber and Jellenio don't have any influence on!
And this you call fair??? Are you serious? Please don't vote for this shit.
Well then your system is even more wrong!

Did kukumber vs Thouson result involve Jellenio somehow?
No, right?
Then how come it decided who will go to PlayOffs between kukumber and Jellenio?
Why the round kukumber got vs Fantomas would help him to progress if Jellenio wasn't even involved in that?

You call this fair?
Hope people won't vote for this shit. ))

I porpose a fair system where we consider ONLY RESULTS BETWEEN TIED PLAYERS.

If Thouson gets 2 rounds from Fantomas he FAIRLY steps into 3 way tie with Jellenio and kukumber.
And OF COURSE that fact itself does not decide the winner of that 3-way tie. Don't twist.

What decides it is the results BETWEEN those three.
And it's fair!
Same as fair as it was between the two before.

Do you get it?

kukumber and Jellenio have no privileges here.
All games played.
kukumber, Jellenio, Thouson have 4 points each.
Tie-breaker event registered.
System deals with it.

So the only thing that matters is POINTS. The rest is a tie-breaker.

Thouson got his 4 points and nobody can complain that this fact changes the tie-breaker material.
He fucking fairly got his points.
So system decides the 3-way tie now between those three players.
Perfectly fair.
Yeah, really. When you change your cows to pigeons you loose the big fucking sledgehammer called COWS. Without it you will hardly make it to SD.

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Re: What to do on equal points in CWT group stage?

Post by Kayz » Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:05 am

The scale of an event doesn't matter. What the hell is this kind of a logic? So if you burn a forest, that's a huge event, but is it something other people should do either?
This sounds like "I don't have an own opinion, but look how UEFA does it. That must be cool!"
Khamski wrote:If Thouson gets 2 rounds from Fantomas he FAIRLY steps into 3 way tie with Jellenio and kukumber.
And OF COURSE that fact itself does not decide the winner of that 3-way tie. Don't twist.
Who is twisting here? Right, you are! It does decide the winner in this case. If Thouson gets 2 rounds from Fantomas, kukumber goes through, if not, Jellenio does. Why don't you understand how unfair this is?

Why do you call me a cheater? I already explained that the previous vote got lost. In the end I will combine the old and new votes. The old vote had 4 votes, the new one 3 -> 4 votes in the end.
If you are on this level of discussing, I am glad the votes show who is right. (Even if you put it as joke in the spoiler, ... haha very funny)

You try to force a system which you think is the best, just because a football league is using it. It might be the best for football, but I already gave simple examples how it's not fair here, since we have no tied games.
Khamski wrote: Did kukumber vs Thouson result involve Jellenio somehow?
No, right?
Then how come it decided who will go to PlayOffs between kukumber and Jellenio?
Why the round kukumber got vs Fantomas would help him to progress if Jellenio wasn't even involved in that?
This statement couldn't be more wrong.
It is indeed more fair to involve kukumber vs. Thouson. It does not involve Jellenio, but it involves kukumber, who is part of the tie with Jellenio (In this tie we try to figure out WHO of the two players had a better performance, which was kukumber winning Thouson 3-0, while Jellenio lost 2-3). But the game of Thouson vs. Fantomas CAN'T be taken into account to show who goes through in a 2-way-tie between kukumber and Jellenio, which is happening with your idea.
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Re: What to do on equal points in CWT group stage?

Post by khamski » Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:44 pm

Kayz wrote:The scale of an event doesn't matter. What the hell is this kind of a logic? So if you burn a forest, that's a huge event, but is it something other people should do either?
Hey, easy there! And keep yourself away from matches! ))

Well, we are not burning forests here.
We discuss rules of the tournament.
UEFA CL is a big professional tournament.
So bringing information on it's rules into discussion is useful.

Of course i am not forcing anything.
People can read this.
Also maybe they will read somehting else in the net and make an educated choice.
It's good.

You act like you are afraid of this information. )
No need really.
References are always good.

Kayz wrote: This sounds like "I don't have an own opinion, but look how UEFA does it. That must be cool!"
Why you repeat this over and over again? I didn't say it.
And no i didn't sound like that. Maybe only in your sore mind. )
Kayz wrote: Who is twisting here? Right, you are! It does decide the winner in this case. If Thouson gets 2 rounds from Fantomas, kukumber goes through, if not, Jellenio does. Why don't you understand how unfair this is?
Yes you are twisting here.
I explained why but you don't want to analyse my answers.
Instead you bring confusion into discussion by "quoting" things i never said.
Kayz wrote: Why do you call me a cheater? I already explained that the previous vote got lost. In the end I will combine the old and new votes. The old vote had 4 votes, the new one 3 -> 4 votes in the end.
If you are on this level of discussing, I am glad the votes show who is right. (Even if you put it as joke in the spoiler, ... haha very funny)
So you take my joke serious even though you knew it was a joke?
Okay. )))

I take this poll just as a technical procedure.
The only thing i want is cwters to understand the issue, make their informative choice and vote.
Any decision of the community is fine with me.
So i don't see the reason for you or anyone else here to get childish about it.
Kayz wrote: You try to force a system which you think is the best, just because a football league is using it. It might be the best for football, but I already gave simple examples how it's not fair here, since we have no tied games.
Not sure i am forcing anything here.
Providing voters with a link to the professional tournanment can't be called "forcing".
It just a food for thought.

Fact that CWT has no tied games is even better.
Not sure why you make it look like a bad thing.
Kayz wrote:
Khamski wrote: Did kukumber vs Thouson result involve Jellenio somehow?
No, right?
Then how come it decided who will go to PlayOffs between kukumber and Jellenio?
Why the round kukumber got vs Fantomas would help him to progress if Jellenio wasn't even involved in that?
This statement couldn't be more wrong.
It is indeed more fair to involve kukumber vs. Thouson. It does not involve Jellenio, but it involves kukumber, who is part of the tie with Jellenio (In this tie we try to figure out WHO of the two players had a better performance, which was kukumber winning Thouson 3-0, while Jellenio lost 2-3). But the game of Thouson vs. Fantomas CAN'T be taken into account to show who goes through in a 2-way-tie between kukumber and Jellenio, which is happening with your idea.
You are wrong.
I made that wrong part bold in the quote.

We don't decide tie between TWO players.
If Thouson gets a point from Fantomas we decide the tie between THREE PLAYERS.

Why don't you read what people write?

Again just for you.

You take already kukumber and Jellenio as tie-breaking situation.
But why you do it?
If Fantomas - Thouson game is not yet played?

We decide the ties only after ALL GAMES ARE PLAYED!

System looks at points only after we have all 3 games played for each player of the group.
And if Thouson would lose to Fanto 2-3. He would have 4 points same as kukumber and Jellenio.
So we have a 3-way tie.

Get it?

Okay step-by-step for you.

1st All games played
2nd System watch if there are players with same points
3rd System implement tie-breaking rules

Your perspective is wrong.
So the conclusions you make out of it.

Little tip:
Read what i just wrote carefully.
And reply afterwards.
This is how discussion work lol. ))
Yeah, really. When you change your cows to pigeons you loose the big fucking sledgehammer called COWS. Without it you will hardly make it to SD.

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Re: What to do on equal points in CWT group stage?

Post by Tade » Sat Jan 31, 2015 8:22 pm

I just want to say why i vote for round ratio, because i have that moment in CWT hystory. http://www.cwtsite.com/archive/2012 where me and Fenrys ended up in same points round ratio +1 for me.
So i needed to win 3-0 or 3-1 to go further, and after first round he lead 0-1. I knew i have to win all 3 rounds and i tryed so hard, and after all and great drama i won.

First thing first, i cant compare it to Champions league because we play only one game so it is pointless to me that game between two same pointers go trough.
Second thing, why would my win against Fenrys worth more than Fenrys win against Random00 who was no.1 in our group? it would be so unfair that i go through because of my win vs. Fenrys.

Sry but only if we play vs each player twice your rule Khamski makes sence to me.
Cheers

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Re: What to do on equal points in CWT group stage?

Post by khamski » Sat Jan 31, 2015 9:52 pm

No need to be sorry. Thanx for your nice calm post.
This is why this poll was started. To gather community opinions.
Yeah, really. When you change your cows to pigeons you loose the big fucking sledgehammer called COWS. Without it you will hardly make it to SD.

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Re: What to do on equal points in CWT group stage?

Post by Kayz » Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:28 am

1. No I am not afraid of this situation, I am just bringing in my point of view that a big event like UEFA CL still can have ridiculous rules. They're just human. And it might be good for football, but not here. And we're playing worms here, not football (pun on your reference that we don't burn forests here).

2. "Why don't you read what people write?"
Seriously? Where didn't I respond to your statements?

It's funny how you think that I don't understand your posts, while you are still not understanding that the outcome of Thouson vs. Fantomas decides about the fate of kukumber and Jellenio.
I know that with your proposal the order is like this, it doesn't change the fact it's unfair in my opinion.
Imagine yourself in kukumber's or Jellenio's situation, after they both have 4 points, while Thouson vs. Fantomas hasn't been played yet.
This game decides, if it will be a 2-way- or a 3-way-tie. And those have different outcomes.
In your perspective those two cases are completely separated and need to be handled in different ways.
You think that Thouson can't be included in figuring out who goes through if he has 1 point less than kukumber and Fantomas.

I have a different perspective, because I think that in a group stage all players need to be included. We have different points of views and that's it. So this discussion is senseless.

Now you even called me childish though I discussed in a calm way. The forest burning was just a stupid metaphor to express my views, there's no need to interpret anything in it. :) You are right about the "forcing" thing, that was a wrong choice of word. Sorry about that.
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Re: What to do on equal points in CWT group stage?

Post by kukumber » Mon Feb 02, 2015 1:06 pm

Kayz wrote:So the CL system would have two different results (either Jellenio or kukumber going through), if Thouson played differently vs. Fantomas..
Oh wow. Now that you've pointed it out I made some calibrations, I mean calculations and gone even farther. I was so wrong when I told CL system is not logical for CWT, look what I've got.
Image
It's just broken lol, not even working.

And fyi khamski I don't hate football, well maybe only in your sore mind.

If someone can't see the picture check the attachments.
Attachments
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Re: What to do on equal points in CWT group stage?

Post by Kayz » Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:13 pm

That's what I wanted to explain, you get cases with this CL system (because you don't have home and away, but only bo5 game), that you sometimes can be going to playoff stage if you play worse than you could...

Thanks for showing us with a mathematical proof how retarded khamski's idea is. Maybe he will finally understand reason and logic now, though I doubt it. I am so glad we won this poll.

This could've destroyed CWT!

I am not condemning the CL system in general by the way.
Those people must've thought long and hard for this system and for CL it works, since u have goals and ties and home and away games.
But it doesn't work for a system where u get a point for 2-3.
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Re: What to do on equal points in CWT group stage?

Post by khamski » Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:52 pm

Very good job by kukumber.
Disarmed the fucking time-bomb that could literally blow the next tournament away if my POINTS->HEAD-2-HEAD result would win the poll.
Sorry for proposing system that had such a malicious exception. My bad. :oops:

Although i have to say i felt excited watching this rating glitch actually working.
Advancing by losing! So darn awesome. :P
Could open a new dimension of CWT... Fixed results lol :lol: :lol: :lol:

Akt, Hwoarng CS:
Fact that we give 1 point for 2-3 loss fucked up the whole logic and made UEFA CL system unusable.
Sorry, fellas.

But... This discussion helped us to have some CWT activity in february! That was never the case in last years. :D
And maybe helped us develop the habbit of discussing CWT issues and be active not just in october-december period.
Thats itself is great.
Also we might be using some inertia from this thread to create all-time ranking formula for CWT.
Yeah, really. When you change your cows to pigeons you loose the big fucking sledgehammer called COWS. Without it you will hardly make it to SD.

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